grav_ity: (sanctuary)
[personal profile] grav_ity
At least since it's hiatus I can start sleeping properly on Mondays again...

I'm not going to talk about Helen and John just yet, except to say that I'm really glad I didn't write my ship meta after work before the episode last night, and to point out that the writers took a bit of a strange leap in their efforts to demonize John when they had the electricity make the Elemental stronger, because up until now, electricity has always stunned it a little bit, but I need to watch the episode again, because by that point I was flipping out, and I don't really remember the scene that well.

(Oh, except I totally laughed inappropriately when Adam said "and then John did that thing with his voice, you know, the one where he gets all menacing", because I've probably only said that a hundred times since I started watching the show AND IT WAS FUNNY. *hearts Christopher Heyerdahl*)

(Oh, and also I love that he called her on using him for his blood lust because has that happened on screen before? It happens in fic all the time, and I was PLEASED AS PUNCH to see it on screen so....directly.)

But you should totally come back later when I do talk about Helen and John. You will be stunned by my ability to handwave things. ;)

Anyway I want to talk a bit about the Abnormal situation.

I think it's interesting that Helen and Henry had that moment in the elevator where he said he was okay with going public. I am choosing to read it as Henry's acceptance of who and what he is, and I like that it came from him (the actual abnormal) instead of from Will. I thought it played interesting against Kate's story, because she's clearly thought of herself as at least an abnormal in name, and the "refugees" refusal to accept her as such was a neat angle for the story to play.

Except of course it won't work. And of course there's an invasion. And Helen talks a lot about "us and them" at the beginning of the episode, which as always is an interesting stance for her, because I'm not sure what side she's on. I also have to wonder, though, and this is kind of a big question, what makes her think the surface abnormals will stay on her side? What reason, aside from personal loyalty, does The Big Guy have? What about Steve, since we've seen some of his kind below and Helen said he's extinct up here? Why on earth would Helen's pets, patients and prisoners pick her side.

(Because despite what I said earlier, I really think there are three sides to this: human, abnormal and Helen freaking Magnus.)

And on a slightly different topic, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ABNORMALS THAT NEED AVATARS? (That's totally where Gregory is, I'd imagine, in the council chamber. Whether he's somehow there corporealy or somehow stuck as an image I don't know, but I'll bet that's where he is.)

I'm also not sure how they're getting out of this without a significant amount of press (or, as I said last night, a nuke), though none of Chile, Indonesia or Russia really strike me as situations that are difficult to contain, in terms of press coverage, but again: these people wrote Stargate. I'm sure it will be swept under the rug in a frustrating fashion. ;)

Speaking of that, [livejournal.com profile] lanna_kitty and I talked a bit last night about how this might get tied up. Obviously, I am COMPLETELY SPOILER FREE and WISH TO REMAIN THUS and YES, THAT INCLUDES CASTING SPOILERS. I suggested that this will all get tied off in two episodes, but she wasn't that optimistic. I have no idea how it will end up in one, but I suppose anything is possible.

(And thank goodness I talked to [livejournal.com profile] lanna_kitty, because she managed to talk me down off the edge of a bunch of Worst Case Scenarios! But then this morning, I thought "They can't kill The Big Guy! They'd have to write Druitt out too!" in response to the thought "They can't write out Druitt! Then they'd have to kill The Big Guy!", which, I know, is a but of a jump, but I've had five hours of sleep and NOW I AM KIND OF IN A PANIC because THEY COULD KIND OF DO BOTH and I WOULD BE VERY UPSET BY THAT!)

I'm willing to handwave the whole "Adam got the HE abnormals to help by promising them the surface and NONE OF THEM ever thought to question the part where he was helping them with no real benefit to himself" thing (and the casting of a WWE personality). They gave us enough class and racial tension in "Pax Romana" that I'm okay with it. But I do think it's worth pointing out that Helen still tends to think of HE as a science project that mirrors her own Sanctuary Network (which, let's be honest, it kind of does: they just have a better budget), and that is really what made me wonder how many of "her" abnormals would stick by her in this.

I think what I'm still reeling from (besides the lack of sleep, of course), was how BOLD this episode was. I mean, either unleashing thousand of abnormals or sending your main character back in time with no return ticket is kind of a big way to end the season. But doing both at once may take me a while to recover from. I do with John's writing had been a bit...less "Hey! She's getting a romantic interest next season!", but I'm willing to live with it because I have a few months to fit it into my own personal context of the show (and honestly, if I had nothing to complain about, WHAT WOULD I DO FOR FUN?). And Will and Kate and Henry and the Big Guy were just SO AWESOME. And when I take a nap, I will talk about Helen and John. ;)

ETA: in the comments, [livejournal.com profile] samjohnsson pointed out that Helen does have a way back: the same way back that Jack Harness had, the same way Rory Williams had. EXCUSE ME WHILE I DIE OF AWESOME! BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AMAZING. OMG!

And hey! Now we know for sure when they injected the Source Blood! And what year Imogen died (man, 1888, 1898, 1908...I wonder what Helen did in 1918? Besides, you know, winning WWI.) So...that's something.

I would like to close by saying that I think I'm going to follow [livejournal.com profile] lanna_kitty's example and refuse to accept "Into the Black" as canon until we get the rest of it (except for speculative fic involving Kate Being Awesome, obviously). By which I mean that I'm not changing my Big Bangs, even though one of them has a tiny conflict, and I'm okay if no one else does either. ;) Alternate Universes FTW!

Look at that! No Somewhat limited CAPS! ;)

Date: 2011-06-21 01:08 pm (UTC)
shadadukal: (SFA : Change the course of history)
From: [personal profile] shadadukal
when they had the electricity make the Elemental stronger, because up until now, electricity has always stunned it a little bit

Good point.

I am choosing to read it as Henry's acceptance of who and what he is, and I like that it came from him (the actual abnormal) instead of from Will.

*nods*

And what you said about Kate, I was so sad for her.

Interesting theory about Gregory.

The sides aren't clear, that's for sure, with the exception of the human side. But I don't count Helen as a human. So when she says "us vs them", I always expect her to add "remember I'm an abnormal too".

none of Chile, Indonesia or Russia really strike me as situations that are difficult to contain, in terms of press coverage

Yeah, it all would be way more difficult to cover or nuke outside of San Francisco, Berlin or Moscow.

They can kill Druitt or the Big Guy without killing the other. But I think neither will die.

They said 1886 for the Source Blood, didn't they?

Date: 2011-06-21 01:51 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus is kind of the best ever)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
I always expect her to add "remember I'm an abnormal too".

Me too. Except honestly I think she doesn't know sometimes. Or she's in denial. It hasn't been that long since "Trail of Blood".

They can kill Druitt or the Big Guy without killing the other. But I think neither will die.

I do know that, but my brain is really not RATIONAL yet, and I keep running through Worst Case Scenarios and MAKE ME STOP.

They said 1886 for the Source Blood, didn't they?

James: You haven't changed a bit.
Helen: Since London last fall?
James: Since spring of 1886.

That's it. Which, admittedly, could mean Source Blood, but she couldn't have changed THAT much between 1886 and 1888, so it was more of a window than a date. Now it's a date.

(It's possible that I expect too much from James, but I still haven't forgiven him for that wretched "April of 88, was it?" line, because in addition to NOT MAKING SENSE it also means that Helen was sleeping with him for a LONG TIME while he was the Ripper and I AM NOT OKAY WITH THAT.)

Date: 2011-06-21 02:00 pm (UTC)
shadadukal: (SFA : Clara bedroom)
From: [personal profile] shadadukal
she's in denial. It hasn't been that long since "Trail of Blood".

Probably that, yes.

I meant they said 1886 in this ep, no? Which would confirm what James said.

Helen was sleeping with him for a LONG TIME while he was the Ripper and I AM NOT OKAY WITH THAT.

Unless they only started sleeping together shortly before he was unmasked.

Date: 2011-06-21 02:02 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (a thousand good-byes)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Yes, John gave us 1886 in this ep.

I...have to think more. And the post possibly the world's most tl;dr ship manifesto in the history of time.

Date: 2011-06-21 01:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jemster.livejournal.com
This was E.P.I.C, both in the story and the implications of said tale. I was going to say something about the whole Helen/John situation but I'll wait until that post to respond (and really, it does need it's own separate post).


I also have to wonder, though, and this is kind of a big question, what makes her think the surface abnormals will stay on her side?

I'm not sure if it's a matter of surface abnormals staying on this side or that side (same with HE abnormals)...I think it's more of who's going to stay on the right side, whichever that is. The HE abnormals have no reason to doubt Adam and people can be somewhat blind to the flip side of possibilities when freedom and power are dangled in front of them. But eventually, the more astute ones will realize something is not quite right and start to rebel.

Look at that! No CAPS! ;)

Well, not many in this post anyway. My inbox? Yeah, total nutter story.

Date: 2011-06-21 01:48 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (because if I have a tesla icon then I ne)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Well, not many in this post anyway. My inbox? Yeah, total nutter story.

Heck with your inbox. You should see my brain. ;)

Yes, "us and them" does not mean what you think it means (I'm pretty sure, anyway). And I am interested to see if Will can save the world without Helen around.

Date: 2011-06-21 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jemster.livejournal.com
Heck with your inbox. You should see my brain. ;)

Um. Can I take a raincheck? For like a VERY long time?

Yes, "us and them" does not mean what you think it means (I'm pretty sure, anyway).

I'm talking about HE vs. Surface and you're thinking Abnormals vs. Normals. Right? Either way, the "right side" is still valid regardless of where they come from or what they are. Can't we all just get along? *sniffles*

And I am interested to see if Will can save the world without Helen around.

Yes, will be very interesting to watch. And also to see if he can keep the UN and General Syracuse (Yes, I know it's Villanova, but I'm going to swap his last name from time to time with various universities just for fun) in check.


Date: 2011-06-21 02:01 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen and kate FTW!)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
(Yes, I know it's Villanova, but I'm going to swap his last name from time to time with various universities just for fun)

That's much more clever than my plan, which is to call him "Maybourne" until he gets a personality. ;)

And yes, you can have a raincheck for as long as you like.

I'm talking about HE vs. Surface and you're thinking Abnormals vs. Normals. Right?

I was thinking of everyone, all the time. But really it's Helen vs. Them, and so help you if you're not on Team Helen.

Date: 2011-06-21 02:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jemster.livejournal.com
That's much more clever than my plan, which is to call him "Maybourne" until he gets a personality. ;)

Bwah! And to see if he can get out of that flat box that is suspended high up in the Sanctuary. ;-)

I was thinking of everyone, all the time. But really it's Helen vs. Them, and so help you if you're not on Team Helen.

Ah, gotcha. Team Helen (which we really need to make t-shirts for.."I'm on Team Helen" or whatnot. We can even have tea cozies and stuff like that. Whee! Cafepress here I come!

Date: 2011-06-21 02:07 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus is kind of the best ever)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
WE SHOULD TOTALLY HAVE TEA COSIES!

Date: 2011-06-21 02:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jemster.livejournal.com
I'm looking at a website called Custom Cozies (http://www.customcozies.com) and there are so many fabric selections! Aaaaah! Need to find one that you can put text on.

Date: 2011-06-21 02:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jemster.livejournal.com
Okay, incomplete thought there. What I mean to say, before I got sidetracked with cozies and t-shirts, is that Team Helen (which is still her team regardless if she's actually there or not) is and always shall be, the winning side.

Date: 2011-06-21 02:16 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
HEE! THat is excellent.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
Quick thought - Helen's got the same way back that Jack Harkness (and Rory Williams for that matter could take). It's just the long way.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:10 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus is kind of the best ever)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
THAT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT!

*resumes flailing*

Date: 2011-06-21 04:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
(ignore the punctuation fail. I've been up for literally five minutes, and my shoulder wants me to rip my arm off and beat it with it.)

Just think of the...havoc doesn't quite encompass...that two Helen Magnuses in a single timeline could cause.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:15 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
I am already writing the fic.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
Come to think, it would actually solve some of Helen's historical discrepancies - her timeline's not as gnarled as, say, Nikola, but there's still some oddities.

(will not contemplate the sexual potential. will not contemplate the...damn.)

Date: 2011-06-21 04:20 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (he's so FLUFFY!)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
HEE!

(Yes, that may or may not be something I have already included.)

(Um, probably no sex, though. But she might think about it.)

Date: 2011-06-21 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
(Oh, I didn't mean a Helen/Helen pair. But she'd be able to entertain more of her harem at a given time. Even if it's just coincidence.)

Date: 2011-06-21 04:24 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (Default)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
...I would never have thought of Helen/Helen.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
I am a twisted twisted man, who has spent too much time in canons where it's, "time travel? Again?"

Or you think young Helen, fairly fresh post-Blood, found herself a mentor, to teach her to have more of her...muchness (thank you, Alice), and set her on her right path? (And yes, I am so contemplating the mythological implications at the moment.)

Date: 2011-06-21 04:28 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (Default)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
I'm taking the "complete avoidance so as to avoid mucking up the timeline" route, but things have a habit of going VERY WELL for Helen, and I think I'd like to fiddle with that a little bit...

Date: 2011-06-21 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samjohnsson.livejournal.com
...you show me one, one, pie Helen's managed to keep her fingers out of, and I'll buy your theory.

Date: 2011-06-21 04:30 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Stop distracting me, and I will. :p

Date: 2011-06-21 11:11 pm (UTC)
ext_2542: (helen's got a gun)
From: [identity profile] gabolange.livejournal.com
I wonder what Helen did in 1918?

I presume she won World War I.

Date: 2011-06-21 11:11 pm (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen magnus is kind of the best ever)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Well yes, but I was looking for details.

Date: 2011-06-22 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
Tracked you down via AO3, seeing as Sanctuary fandom seems a bit thin on the ground over at DW and I just finished Into the Black and need to FREAK OUT in someone's general direction, so, er, hi!

I am also very confused about John's whole the electricity will make the elemental stronger. Maybe he's very, very confused? Maybe his elemental is about to take over Praxis? Who knows?

Helen Magnus can take the Jack Harkness route back, which would be an interesting thing to see. I mean Christopher Heyerdahl already plays two people, why not have Amanda Tapping play two Helens? (And can I say, flash back episodes with two Helens is now everything I want in life? Especially when James figures it out and has to promise to never even hint at it to Helen 1.0.)

The thing is, I think Helen thinks of herself as an abnormal, and no one else does, not even the Big Guy, and especially not Henry or Will. She thinks that since she would follow her, everyone else will to, and usually that works really well.

As for Helen and John... my thought on them would take essays.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:19 am (UTC)
ext_1358: (possibly not her best idea)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Hey, I never turn down random flailing.

I am also very confused about John's whole the electricity will make the elemental stronger. Maybe he's very, very confused? Maybe his elemental is about to take over Praxis? Who knows?

See, I thought "Oh, it will jump into the electrical system of a dead, abandoned city! This seems like a GREAT PLAN FOR EVERYONE!" but then when John spoke it was definitely his Ripper voice (OH, IT'S STILL FUNNY!), and...yeah. Someone left their writer's bible at home that day, I think.

I hadn't really thought about sending the summer writing Rerun!Helen (I wonder if I can make that catch on...), but I REALLY REALLY want to. And unlike most of my person fanons, where I try to stick the same ideas as much as possible, I want to write fics where she both does and does not interfere (or at least interferes with SOME people...).

I wondered if the Big Guy would be the ONLY one who thought of Helen as an abnormal, but I can see how he wouldn't too, now that I think about it. He's always been a bit speciest, in his own way, and I think it would be in character.

I am writing a Helen/John essay. I hope to be finished by Christmas.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
I think I'm writing the AU where John's elemental ends up in Praxis, Helen jumps through the rift and John tries to fix everything, but eventually has to go get the children for help (who of course think he's killed Helen but have to work with him because General Villonova has gone power mad).

It'll probably done sometimes after the Helen/John essay of yours :)

Rerun!Helen is a great appellation, one I will now be using as well. I always like playing with all the different ways things can play out, so this is my most favorite cliffhanger type. I mean, think of all the things Helen could interfere in.

I was actually thinking that the only person who might think of Helen as an abnormal is Kate, because she knew her first as a enemy and would have been briefed on her as an abnormal by the Cabal.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:31 am (UTC)
ext_1358: (kate - this is a hold up)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
I have all these thoughts about who identifies as an abnormal, mostly cribbed from [livejournal.com profile] penknife and [livejournal.com profile] artaxastra, and I think I think Kate does too, at least to herself. When they rejected her, I felt SO BAD for her, because this is her world, and watching her get shut out of it was WEIRD for me.

Conversely, I think that Henry has only just recently started identifying himself as abnormal. And Will doesn't at all, even when he's turning into one.

But yes: Kate definitely thinks of Helen as an abnormal. Declan might too, actually. He certainly doesn't think of them as human, anyway.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
I think Declan thinks of the Five as a special category in and of itself. Mostly because I ship James/Declan, and so in my head, Declan thinks of Helen as being in the same category as James and James isn't abnormal, but he's not normal either. So The Five, to him, become a set outside the normal vs. abnormal thing.

Actually, I bet that's how a lot of people think of them. Odd, but not quite abnormal, because I generally think most people define abnormal as "not human."

Date: 2011-06-22 01:38 am (UTC)
ext_1358: (declan learned this from sherlock holmes)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Oh, James and Declan. *pets them*

I mean, yes, you are right. They are The Five. Not quite either and never at home with anyone but themselves. But worth it, of course. For science.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
Yes, this, exactly. For science. :D

Date: 2011-06-22 01:42 am (UTC)
ext_1358: (not paired up for square dancing)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
Did anyone tell you that you won "Best Applied Combinatorics (4+)" for the [livejournal.com profile] sfa_ficawards? I am kind of the worst mod ever when it comes to stuff like that. There's a banner somewhere over there, anyway.

Oh, science! Because shooting up with vampire blood is totally a good idea.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
I saw that, that is awesome! I'm glad people liked it so much.

Because shooting up with vampire blood is totally a good idea

This is basically my whole characterization of Helen Magnus. I'm in the middle of writing a Veritas AU in which everything goes wrong, and at one point John wonders loudly why Helen would put a beetle in her head, and Nikola just turns to him and is like, have you met Helen Magnus before?

Because Helen's favorite lab rat is herself.

Date: 2011-06-22 01:50 am (UTC)
ext_1358: (helen - gun)
From: [identity profile] grav-ity.livejournal.com
She has such magnificent plans! Sometimes they involve HITTING THINGS WITH A ROCK. I adore her.

Date: 2011-06-22 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
Best. Plan. Ever.

Try science. If Science doesn't work, hit things with rocks.

Date: 2011-06-22 04:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] palmaceae.livejournal.com
I think I'm writing the AU omg yes please!! i still think mariposa grove is one of the best pieces of writing in the fandom, hands down.

Date: 2011-06-22 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessemerprocess.livejournal.com
Well, it's in line behind a Veritas AU and my sfabig bang (which is also an AU wherein Adam Worth rounds out the group to The Six), but I think it'll eventually get written.

I'm glad you enjoyed it so much. And I have to say, Penknife's prompt made the whole thing a joy to write. I love Yuletide!

Date: 2011-06-22 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] palmaceae.livejournal.com
which is also an AU wherein Adam Worth rounds out the group to The Six oh wow, cannot WAIT!!

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