A Question For The Flist

[grav_ity]

So, flist, you are (mostly) liberal, bleeding heart females. You've exploded over Stargate Universe (rightfully so), and you complained about the finale of Battlestar Galactica for reasons that I don't entirely understand or agree with, but can come to terms with.

You have not said anything about Caster Semenya, and I am wondering what you think.

Background: Caster Semenya is an 800 metre runner from South Africa, who has blasted away a bunch of records and is currently undergoing a gender test to see if she is, in fact, eligible to complete as a woman.

More Background: At the Melbourne Olympics, Tamara Press won the shot put and discus, and was later suspected of not being female. Her gender could not be determined, but testing became mandatory in 1966 and Tamara never competed again. The testing is only for females, and nowadays typically involves evaluation by gynecologists, endocrinologists, psychologists, and internal medicine specialists. (Source) There are also new rules that allow people who have had reassignment surgery to compete as the gender they identify. The IOC discontinued the testing process in 1999 (currently it's being brought up again by the IAAF).

So, flist, how do you feel?

Comments

[havocthecat]

I highly doubt that Caster Semenya is, in fact, attempting to replicate the plot of "Juwanna Mann" IRL. There are also many other, less snarky things that I think about here, which involve me believing there's probably a case of raging transphobia on the part of the people who want her tested, and also the suspicion that she's not really being tested for maybe being a man, but that people seem to think she deserves this for not being enough of a girly-girl.

The fact that there are all kinds of ways to be a woman and a whole spectrum of gender presentation, all of which are acceptable, well, that's all apparently slipped some people's minds.

(Edited to fix a couple of typos.)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

One of the things that I have been impressed with, considering the messiness of the issue, is the statements by the IAAF that it's NOT an issue of cheating ("it's a medical issue, not an issue of cheating").

Aside from Caster Semenya, they perhaps need more categories? I don't know.

[archae-ology.livejournal.com]

Historically there is a basis to go from where men have competed as women and as a matter of fairness if it is suspected to be the case there should be tests performed. If a competitor is upfront about any potential gender reassignment surgeries or conditions that they may have had I feel it is a completely different case, but if there is deliberate attempts to obscure the truth that is another matter all together.

When it comes right down to it, for me it`s a matter of being completely upfront and telling the truth.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

Which is why I think the IAAF is handling this relatively well. They have not accused her of concealing anything, or of deliberately trying to mislead the federation. It sucks (because, god, can you imagine finding out you were XO or XXY because the IAAF ran a test on you?), but...sometimes fairness is hard.

[archae-ology.livejournal.com]

You're right, it does suck, but if something is up it's probably best that it be found found out now instead of at a higher level of competition further down the line. Plus, in terms of health if anything is up it would be best to find out now so that in the future Caster can have the best care possible by knowing her complete medical history.

And they are handling it rather well, it could be going much worse.

[inlovewithnight.livejournal.com]

I've been following it a little bit, haven't done in-depth reading. It's definitely discriminatory and ridiculous on a variety of levels. But until I do more reading I can't really give a more in-depth opinion. :\

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad, because I LOVE international sports so much, and I hate it when it gets stupid (because it should be GREAT, you know, with Bolt and Semenya smashing records left and right). I understand the problem, and I like A LOT the fact that they've made progress in a somewhat foggy area since the 60s, but...it's still uncomfortable.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Because I fucking hate sports?

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. To each her own. :)

I just wondered, because it's a Female Thing, and my flist is usually all over it, but so far I hadn't read anything on lj yet.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

I actually have no problem with this. I mean, maybe it would be more fair if everyone had to go through testing, but I don't think it's inherently discriminatory to want to make sure that people are competing in the category to which they are assigned. And I find I am even more okay with it given that people who have gender reassignment surgery can be reassigned--it doesn't seem to be inherently discriminatory against people who are transgendered.

That being said, I think that as we learn more about the myraid chromosomal problems that exist out there, the rules will have to exist on a somewhat ad hoc basis. Is someone who is XXY male or female? (Example not based in knowledge.) How on earth can gender testing be indeterminate? (Myriad chromosomal problems? I don't actually know.) So, you know. It's a fuzzy sort of thing, but I don't think it's an inherently problematic fuzzy sort of thing.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have a problem with it, but I am not sure. I mean, I think that people who are male should not be allowed to compete against people who are female, because it's not fair....but I think there might need to be more than two categories? Or something?

[colej55.livejournal.com]

I am normally uber-conservative, but my opinion in this matter is tempered by my being old and having a medical background.

I can remember the Russian women of the 1960's who were incredibly muscled and not very pretty - and all of the hoopla that hit the airwaves once TV's were commonly available and the Olympics were widely broadcast. Winning was everything to the USSR back then, so who knows how far they went to supplement the athletic prowess of their competitors. Or perhaps the vast majority of their female athletes were just incredibly well trained because that was their state-mandated job. Russian women hardly placed great emphasis on beauty back then anyway.

More than 40 years later, I think this issue has to be handled with terrific care and the utmost sensitivity. I certainly don't think it's fair to eliminate someone due to a chromosomal abnormality or hermaphroditism. They still had to work hard and prepare well for their sport. No deception, no foul. Besides, how do you prove deception unless a woman is found to possess and be taking male hormones in order to enhance muscle bulk, etc.? Women who train hard for running sports often stop menstruating and their anatomy and physiology can change radically due to the reduction in female hormones brought on by the stress of such strenuous training. That does not turn them into men and it certainly isn't cheating.

Even in gender reassignment cases, most people take hormones to make them hormonally compatible with their new gender, so they should be allowed compete with like-gendered individuals. Again, hormones change anatomy and physiology. A man who surgically changes his anatomy to that of a female and takes estrogen to suppress male traits (like a beard) and enhance female traits (like breasts) is definitely female as much as is possible and should compete with women. Even without taking estrogen, loss of the gonads reduces production of testosterone, so it can't be said that they are still male. Women who reassign their gender to that of males should be allowed to take testosterone and compete with men.

Like I said, great care and sensitivity is needed in this age of gender ambiguity and greater medical skills. It is humiliating and terribly invasive to undergo gender determination examinations, especially if someone is being completely honest or has an anomalous condition that they cannot help.

I would prefer that integrity and the honor of fair sportsmanship be emphasized rather than witch hunting for a reason to disqualify exceptional athletes. Let the burden be on the heart and conscience of the competitor and their home country, not the IOA or other sports governing bodies!

And just to throw another monkey wrench into the mix (without hijacking your post), why shouldn't amputees be allowed to participate in the regular Olympics? Why is it that modern prosthetics are viewed as "performance enhancing"? I can't imagine what kind of dedication it takes to learn to run on those things (or the kind of pain they must endure due to pressure on tender stumps and the formation of blisters from the sockets rubbing on sensitive scars and abnormally-shaped flesh)! If they can do it and compete successfully, more power - and glory - to them!

Thanks for posting this topic, as it is very interesting, thought provoking, and not so easily tied up neatly with a bow!

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I think the main thing with the Olympics, is that they've always tried to be as fair as possible. And when I say always, I mean ALWAYS. Women used to pose as men to compete, and to combat that, the Greeks enforced a rule that everyone had to compete NAKED. :)

I like that this isn't a witchhunt, that they are not trying to flush her out for cheating, but to maintain the fairness that the Olympics inspires in world sporting bodies (the Olympics no longer does gender testing, but since the IAAF does, they sort of benefit anyway).

As to the prosthetics: it goes back to the fairness. Blind people compete against blind people, amputees compete against amputees, etc. Are prosthetics viewed as performance enhancing at all?

[colej55.livejournal.com]

Fairness is ethically correct and should be maintained if at all possible, but modern gender choices make it difficult. Diagnosis of genetic variations has come so far in recent years, which sort of adds to the problem rather than solving it. Should there be special classifications of competition for hermaphrodites or those with chromosome variations? That would definitely be humiliating! It makes my head spin....

I don't disagree that similar people should compete against one another, but if someone is competitive enough to compete with the "able bodied", then why shouldn't they be allowed to? And, yes, there is an amazing double amputee who is able to compete on the Olympic level as a sprinter and he has been barred from doing so on the basis that his composite "feet" provide better recoil than natural feet. His prestheses have been ruled as "performance enhancing". He has literally suffered blood, sweat, and tears getting to the place where he is physically as a top competitor and it seems wrong that he is limited because he is a double amputee and has an "unfair advantage".

It is so much more complicated than it used to be! BTW, I love sports of all kinds and have been very involved with the Special Olympics. My brother and sister were handicapped and I use crutches and a wheelchair. I find the entire subject of fairness in sport fascinating.

[smor.livejournal.com]

I'll just state up front that I'm generally neither liberal nor interested in sports. But I have read a little about this one...honestly, I just feel bad for her. Not to mention I think it's demeaning, not just to her but to women in general. If it is a case of she has an extra chromosome that makes her a little more masculine than the average female (man, this is bringing back memories of senior year anatomy/physiology class genetic stuff...), it's not like she can help that, and I think it would be a shame for her to be disqualified due to a genetic situation beyond her control. From what little I've read, though, it seems that she's handling it with far more grace (and humor) than I would, so kudos to her. It also seems a bit generally unfair to me that the question of her gender would even be brought up--she can run really fast, so people start saying she might actually be a man? If they're going to do stuff like that, then maybe they should start checking on guys who excel in say, figure skating.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

If they're going to do stuff like that, then maybe they should start checking on guys who excel in say, figure skating.

*dies laughing*

Seriously, though. Those guys are guys. My friends who used to be figure skaters can still life me, and I weigh over 200lbs. :)

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

Well...I would not generally be considered liberal, but for what it's worth, I feel terrible for the woman in question. I very much doubt that she and her family are deliberately deceiving people. If there's anything 'wrong' genetically with her, it's not something she knew about. What a terrible way to find out, in full view of half the world. On the other hand, while I'm sure she sees herself as female, if she has an advantage due to a genetic anomaly, I can also see why sport officials feel they have to get involved. And I can see why they think she might, based on her appearance and voice.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I definitely feel bad for everyone involved in the situation.

[splash-the-cat.livejournal.com]

For me it pretty much boils down to she doesn't physically fit the traditional femme sexualized female athlete stereotype (muscular, ripped, but still hot enough to screw), so of course she must be a man! < /sarcasm > I mean, women athletes are still pretty clearly sex objects. I remember a hullaballo recently that male comentators were complaining that female tennis players grunted too loudly while playing. Apparently it wasn't dignified.

And there's plenty of reasons she could have male hormones and still be genetically female. I have polycystic ovarian syndrome, and my testosterone levels are twice normal. And let me tell you, it hasn't done much for me physically.

Seriously. Usain Bolt is 23, and he gets nothing but praise. Michael Phelps, lauded everywhere. A young woman who doesn't look attractive enough, doesn't fit societies acceptable standards of "girly enough" succeeds quickly and at a young age? She must be a man. It's misogynistic, transphobic and just plain crap.

[ezri-wien.livejournal.com]

Maybe someone is jealous or it is a dirty little sport-politic-thing. I don know.

It must be hard for her having such a personal problem discussed for the entire world to see. But if she genetically really is a man wouldn’t it be better she knows that?

Remembering a skier from my country I know - This things can have a happy end…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Schinegger