Thoughts About THOR
Jun. 11th, 2012 09:26 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
grav_ityLast night I rewatched THOR. In part, this was because I really love the movie and I finally worked up the courage to see how well it fares on the second time through, but mostly it was because I read an article called Is Thor a feminist movie? (Yes), which assured me I wasn't crazy to begin with.
I could see the seeds they were planting for the Avengers very clearly when I rewatched THOR. Every scene with Selvig makes much more sense when you realize that he, not Jane, will be important later. It absolutely enrages me, of course, but there's not a lot I can do. And at the very end, it appears he's already marginally under Loki's influence? HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK? But the basically set up the scene where Selvig "rescues" Thor and then they get drunk in a bar as the basis for Thor's entire (Earth based) emotional journey in the Avengers. I'm actually from Earth, and I still don't care.
(Also...Loki appears to be a raging misogynist? I mean, bully for him, adding mommy issues to his daddy issues, but...WHAT? He only gets Thor to fight him by threatening Jane (in a very base kind of way), and the parallels to his scene with Natasha in the Avengers can't really be ignored. In both cases it seems to come out of nowhere, though I suppose you could say he was trying to provoke Thor the first time and completely insane by the second. I don't expect my villains to be gentlemen, not by any stretch, but so help me I do not understand why anyone is attracted to a dude who talks like that!)
A few people in the comments of the "feminist" article were complaining about how quickly Jane falls in love with Thor, considering that she is completely devoted to her work. I was thinking about that though, and leaving aside the part where it is very hard not to look at him...well, let's just say that Jane is kind of a nerd. There is nothing wrong with being a nerd. Many of my friends are nerds. I am a nerd (or a geek, depending on the situation and material), and I think as a nerd-girl I understand a bit of why Jane falls in love so quickly.
To understand Jane, you really need to think about her profession. She's a woman in a field of almost entirely men, and on top of that, she's an academic. Which means that she has had to fight for absolutely every shred of credibility she has ever got. Every group project she ever did, every paper she's ever presented, she was "the girl". And now she's chasing an idea that borders on science fiction, which means she will be "crazy" until she figures it out, and when she proves it, the credit will promptly go to someone else.
(Think I'm kidding? Watch the tag scene again. Nick Fucking Fury gives all the credit to Selvig (who, thank goodness, does his best to remember that it was Jane's idea). This happened IN HER OWN MOVIE. Of course it would also happen in real life!)
Even worse, as a nerd-girl, Jane has had to deal with nerd-boys. Now, don't get me wrong: many nerd-boys are excellent people. Several of my friends have married them (whether or not they themselves were nerds!), but many of them have this sense of entitlement that is annoying at best and creepy at worst. They've been programmed to think that Megan Fox, Natalie Portman (bad analogy, I know), metal bikini-Leia, is theirs by right. It's the ENTIRE PREMISE of "The Big Bang Theory". That the pretty nerd-girl they do science with is also prime dating material, regardless of how she feels.
(Think I am wrong? Put on a dress and some make up and walk into a comic book store sometime. I mean, it helps if you also say something like "Do you have any of the complete volumes of Rising Stars?" but seriously. It can be very awkward.)
So even Jane's intellectual equals, the ones with whom she can exchange theories and brainstorm ideas, have this layer of danger on them.
Into that walks Thor, whose courtly manners and ridiculous good looks would be enough to set anyone's head spinning (including Jane who, let's face it, does not get out much). On top of that though, while he looks a bit dim, he's actually translating. He's from ANOTHER PLANET. Of course he's going to be weird and have strange values and think he can buy a dog big enough to ride on in a pet store.
For me, their relationship has two key scenes. In the van, before she truly believes him, he asks her if she thinks he's "good strange or bad strange". That was when I realized that Thor actually kind of understands what's going on around him. He's not just some huge buffoon (okay, he's totally a buffoon. But he has his moments!). The other scene is the one on the roof when he explains the bifrost to her. He doesn't do it as a teacher, not quite, but instead as someone who speaks another language might explain how the trains work in their country. We use different words, but the ideas are the same. He already thinks that she is brave, but he understands that she is also very smart...and he is not in any way threatened by that.
His complete acceptance of her, of every part of her, is, I think, why she falls for him so fast (combined, of course, with his appearance and her own curiosity as to what the heck is going on). That foundation, the fact that Jane is a person to him instead of a wind-up doll that speaks science, and the fact that Thor is a person to her, in addition to being the man with the answers, is what makes their story work.
Of course, the other thing that makes their story work is that Jane works her butt off WITH SCIENCE to get back to him. She'll have to prove it, of course, and then fix the bifrost somehow, but in this story, Thor is the princess in the tower and she's the one cutting her way through the briar patch outside (even though, apparently, there are short cuts. Not to mention annoying government agencies who KEEP THEM APART FOR NO GOOD REASON!).
I have no idea what will happen in THOR II. It will be very hard to follow the Avengers at all, but for me, it will also be hard follow THOR. I love this movie for many reasons, and a big part of it was how Kenneth Brannagh directed the shots. I'm optimistic, of course, and excited, but there's that nagging feeling in the back of my mind. At least I'll always have this one!
I could see the seeds they were planting for the Avengers very clearly when I rewatched THOR. Every scene with Selvig makes much more sense when you realize that he, not Jane, will be important later. It absolutely enrages me, of course, but there's not a lot I can do. And at the very end, it appears he's already marginally under Loki's influence? HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK? But the basically set up the scene where Selvig "rescues" Thor and then they get drunk in a bar as the basis for Thor's entire (Earth based) emotional journey in the Avengers. I'm actually from Earth, and I still don't care.
(Also...Loki appears to be a raging misogynist? I mean, bully for him, adding mommy issues to his daddy issues, but...WHAT? He only gets Thor to fight him by threatening Jane (in a very base kind of way), and the parallels to his scene with Natasha in the Avengers can't really be ignored. In both cases it seems to come out of nowhere, though I suppose you could say he was trying to provoke Thor the first time and completely insane by the second. I don't expect my villains to be gentlemen, not by any stretch, but so help me I do not understand why anyone is attracted to a dude who talks like that!)
A few people in the comments of the "feminist" article were complaining about how quickly Jane falls in love with Thor, considering that she is completely devoted to her work. I was thinking about that though, and leaving aside the part where it is very hard not to look at him...well, let's just say that Jane is kind of a nerd. There is nothing wrong with being a nerd. Many of my friends are nerds. I am a nerd (or a geek, depending on the situation and material), and I think as a nerd-girl I understand a bit of why Jane falls in love so quickly.
To understand Jane, you really need to think about her profession. She's a woman in a field of almost entirely men, and on top of that, she's an academic. Which means that she has had to fight for absolutely every shred of credibility she has ever got. Every group project she ever did, every paper she's ever presented, she was "the girl". And now she's chasing an idea that borders on science fiction, which means she will be "crazy" until she figures it out, and when she proves it, the credit will promptly go to someone else.
(Think I'm kidding? Watch the tag scene again. Nick Fucking Fury gives all the credit to Selvig (who, thank goodness, does his best to remember that it was Jane's idea). This happened IN HER OWN MOVIE. Of course it would also happen in real life!)
Even worse, as a nerd-girl, Jane has had to deal with nerd-boys. Now, don't get me wrong: many nerd-boys are excellent people. Several of my friends have married them (whether or not they themselves were nerds!), but many of them have this sense of entitlement that is annoying at best and creepy at worst. They've been programmed to think that Megan Fox, Natalie Portman (bad analogy, I know), metal bikini-Leia, is theirs by right. It's the ENTIRE PREMISE of "The Big Bang Theory". That the pretty nerd-girl they do science with is also prime dating material, regardless of how she feels.
(Think I am wrong? Put on a dress and some make up and walk into a comic book store sometime. I mean, it helps if you also say something like "Do you have any of the complete volumes of Rising Stars?" but seriously. It can be very awkward.)
So even Jane's intellectual equals, the ones with whom she can exchange theories and brainstorm ideas, have this layer of danger on them.
Into that walks Thor, whose courtly manners and ridiculous good looks would be enough to set anyone's head spinning (including Jane who, let's face it, does not get out much). On top of that though, while he looks a bit dim, he's actually translating. He's from ANOTHER PLANET. Of course he's going to be weird and have strange values and think he can buy a dog big enough to ride on in a pet store.
For me, their relationship has two key scenes. In the van, before she truly believes him, he asks her if she thinks he's "good strange or bad strange". That was when I realized that Thor actually kind of understands what's going on around him. He's not just some huge buffoon (okay, he's totally a buffoon. But he has his moments!). The other scene is the one on the roof when he explains the bifrost to her. He doesn't do it as a teacher, not quite, but instead as someone who speaks another language might explain how the trains work in their country. We use different words, but the ideas are the same. He already thinks that she is brave, but he understands that she is also very smart...and he is not in any way threatened by that.
His complete acceptance of her, of every part of her, is, I think, why she falls for him so fast (combined, of course, with his appearance and her own curiosity as to what the heck is going on). That foundation, the fact that Jane is a person to him instead of a wind-up doll that speaks science, and the fact that Thor is a person to her, in addition to being the man with the answers, is what makes their story work.
Of course, the other thing that makes their story work is that Jane works her butt off WITH SCIENCE to get back to him. She'll have to prove it, of course, and then fix the bifrost somehow, but in this story, Thor is the princess in the tower and she's the one cutting her way through the briar patch outside (even though, apparently, there are short cuts. Not to mention annoying government agencies who KEEP THEM APART FOR NO GOOD REASON!).
I have no idea what will happen in THOR II. It will be very hard to follow the Avengers at all, but for me, it will also be hard follow THOR. I love this movie for many reasons, and a big part of it was how Kenneth Brannagh directed the shots. I'm optimistic, of course, and excited, but there's that nagging feeling in the back of my mind. At least I'll always have this one!
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no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 01:57 pm (UTC)lol, hell to the yeah. Well, really I think he's more of a raging... whatever the opposite of a philathropist is... misathropist? -- but he definitely seems to have it out for the women-folk.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 03:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 04:08 pm (UTC)(After the movie, someone reminded me that he basically threatens to rape Jane ("pay her a visit"), which is still pretty gross, but I had COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT, to the point that when the person reminded me, I had to check the scene!)
(I totally understand irrational. For all my talk, I'm one of "those people" who fell rather hard for JACK THE FREAKING RIPPER, but at least Helen Magnus beats him up on a regular basis!)
no subject
Date: 2012-06-12 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 02:18 pm (UTC)http://splashpage.mtv.com/2012/06/11/zachary-levi-joshua-dallas-thor-sequel/
no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 02:21 pm (UTC)You are adorable!
(Also, Joshua Dallas has RANGE! I barely even recognized him! And his accent is RIDICULOUS I LOVE IT.)
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Date: 2012-06-11 02:25 pm (UTC)I've had THOR on my rewatch list JUST because I wanted to marvel at Josh Dallas's irrecongizeability (TOTALLY making that a real word). But for other reasons too. Now it just vaulted super high AGAIN.
Also, it's nice to finally have confirmed after two-ish years what role Zac was supposed to have.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 03:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 02:33 pm (UTC)it appears he's already marginally under Loki's influence? HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK?
I didn't read the stinger that way.
Thanks for the link to that article!
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Date: 2012-06-11 02:35 pm (UTC)In the stinger, Loki replaces Erik's reflection and says "Well, that's worth a look" and then Erik says it too. I just thought it was odd.
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Date: 2012-06-11 02:40 pm (UTC)Yeah, it is odd, but I don't think Loki could possibly mind-control Erik like that. Basically, he's only projecting himself at that point IMO. I think...
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Date: 2012-06-11 02:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 09:23 pm (UTC)I hope she brings Darcy with her somehow. I sort of fell in love with that girl somewhere about the time Coulson stole her iPod.
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Date: 2012-06-11 04:48 pm (UTC)A few people in the comments of the "feminist" article were complaining about how quickly Jane falls in love with Thor, considering that she is completely devoted to her work.
Pfft, I don't see why that matters, though! (Not disagreeing with you, but with the commenters, obviously.) I mean, your analysis makes sense, and there are good reasons why Thor is an attractive romantic prospect (haha, I mean beyond the shallow ones), but at the same time -- and I say this even as someone who does not normally go for romance except as a background element -- falling in love is all about emotions, and I don't see any reason why a sensible professional woman (or man) would be any less susceptible to it than ... well, what is the opposite of "professional workaholic lady" supposed to be, anyway? College girl? Stay-at-home mom? Anyway, I don't see why Jane being married to her job, in a sense, would preclude her falling in love just as readily as someone who isn't, particularly since she's never in a position of having to choose between Thor and her job.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 06:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 05:48 pm (UTC)There's a deccent argument that that's not actually a hatred for women for their own sake, but rather a facet of his self-loathing (of which he has bundles). Mythologically speaking, Loki was one of two Norse gods who regularly took roles and abilities the Norse culturally assigned to women (magic, childbirth, wordsmithy, etc) - the other one was Odin, interestingly enough, but howandever. Marvel Loki ... actually has a lot of that as well.
If you look at the group he was part of (Thor, Sif, the W3), he was the one taking the traditionally female roles for his culture: the weakest fighter, the statesman, the illusionist mage. (Odin actually does similar - witness Thor's early movie opinions on how Odin dealt with the Jotun). Made worse by the fact that the group actually has a woman, and Sif is nearly more stereotypically manly than Thor, never mind Loki. So he's basically the girl of the group, culturally speaking, the swift-talking illusionist mage in a culture that's all about the manly warrior type, and he knows it.
Then add in the rather catastrophic-for-his-mental-health revelation that he's actually a Jotun, a monster. That everything he's ever known about himself is a lie, another illusion. That there was apparently a reason he never fit his culture's ideals (an outside one, anyway), and that reason is basically that he's actually the boogeman.
All his speeches in Avengers, about being freed from the evils of identity? That's not just propaganda for the invasion. That's coming straight from Loki's own id, at that point.
If you look at what he actually says to Natasha, there's not a single thing there that cannot be turned around on him, up to and including, given his history and his culture, the 'mewling quim' line (female-role who relies on words to get out of trouble). And he knows it. The two people he goes out of his way to attack, on the Helicarrier, are Bruce and Natasha. Basically, the two people there who are most like him. The monster, and the female who uses wiles to get her way. (Also Tony, later, for similar reasons again).
In one sense, basically everything Loki does from that moment in Thor where his hand turns blue is attack anything and everything that throws up a reflection of what he now fears he is, and always was. He tries to outright genocide the Jotun, removing the stain of his lineage. The first person he goes for in the Avengers is Bruce, the man who discovered he was a monster. And when Natasha comes down to try and troll him using his own tricks, basically to his mind flaunting his entire history among his peers at him, he flips his lid at her.
I think it's less that Loki is a raging misogynist, is my point. It's more that he's a bundle of raging identity and self-loathing issues who, like the Beast in Beauty & the Beast, is smashing every mirror that comes his way in an attempt to destroy all external reminders of his catastrophic internal failings (and, at the end of Thor, trying to get rid of those, too, by commiting suicide, but then he landed on ... who he landed on, which all on its own wouldn't be good for anyone's sanity).
Or, as Bruce puts it, his brain is a bag of cats.
Which is not necessarily better, mind you, but it at least makes a fascinating study in psychosis.
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Date: 2012-06-11 06:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-11 06:19 pm (UTC)Um. Not the good kind of shock, yes?
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Date: 2012-06-11 06:37 pm (UTC)He is there so that Jane will have a male to give her ideas weight. (that is why she asked him to come down)
So your entire point about Thor's treatment of her and why she appreciates it is RIGHT on target.
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Date: 2012-06-11 06:41 pm (UTC)I have no problem with him being her mentor/substitute father figure (particularly since he is also a substitute father figure for Thor, in a very weak sort of way, but in a much BETTER way than Odin), but YES, IT GRINDS ME. And I'm a girl in an academic field that has been weighted female for a while now.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-13 01:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-06-15 05:13 am (UTC)Honestly, I enjoyed Thor much more on the second viewing. The first time I felt like the pacing in the beginning really lagged; when I knew what was coming, I just enjoyed the whole movie more.
They've been programmed to think that Megan Fox, Natalie Portman (bad analogy, I know), metal bikini-Leia, is theirs by right. It's the ENTIRE PREMISE of "The Big Bang Theory". That the pretty nerd-girl they do science with is also prime dating material, regardless of how she feels.
Agreed. I think given the double whammy of 'respect for her' + 'key to her whole life's work' makes it really believable that she'd fall in love. While I DO think the romance is fast, I believe it, largely because I found the actors to have really great charisma together.
no subject
Date: 2012-06-17 06:36 pm (UTC)