Some Thoughts About Black Widow

[grav_ity]

Okay, so they aren't MY thoughts, they're azarsuerte's, but they are AMAZING and I wish I HAD THOUGHT OF THEM and while the cynical part of me is all "man, they really have trained you to take what you're given", I'm trying to ignore it because cynicism is for...well, it's not for me.

Anyway, thoughts about Natasha Romanov, and how her portrayal shifted between IR2 and The Avengers.

(Sidenote: it is really hard for me to type "IR" as the short form for Ironman, a bit because IR is my short form for irony_rocks, but mostly because that's not iron's chemical shorthand.)

But seriously, read that post.

Comments

[samjohnsson.livejournal.com]

I agree with your cynic that yes, we've been trained - and badly - to take what we're giving. But I also agree completely with azarsuerte in that Joss did an amazing job framing her as an agent first and a bra model second.

...I honestly don't see how a Pepper & Natasha scene would've made sense in the movie without it being related to Tony, thus failing Bechdel. Natasha & Maria, maybe, but...

I find it interesting that the most offensive words uttered in the movie towards any of the characters - and holy fuck, were they offensive* - were specifically denigrating towards woman, and were used explicitly to frame the character speaking them as a heartless bastard. Coulda done without hearing them, and there might've been better ways to get the point across, but they did the job.

* Theatre was full of young kids with their parents when I went to see. I can just imagine the post-movie conversations...

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have posted elsewhere about that line, and I was not impressed by it. I was even less impressed by what Whedon has said in interviews about it (you can find the link in Cleolinda's article), but I have a long practice of ignoring what Whedon says in interviews.

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm weird, but I didn't think the um Q word, which makes me think of old-fashioned porn was ever as strong as the C word. A friend says it's different in England, but I dunno.

As for Natasha, I think all the points made in the blog were dead-on, and I liked her better for being a dry-witted hard ass who had only one little vulnerability (Hawkeye) to her make up.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I knew that there was a offensive line said to Natasha, but I didn't know what it was at all. When Loki said it, I was all "JESUS, JOSS! There's sneaking something past the censors and then there's BEING KIND OF RUDE ABOUT IT, and I think you crossed a line somewhere!"

It's certainly as strong as cunt, and was clearly used in a non-humourous way to replace the word cunt, and, as I said previously, I really don't think we needed ANOTHER word in our cultural vernacular specifically to make women feel bad about themselves.

Natasha was awesome, though. Fabulous and I WANT A MOVIE NOW (but only if Joss Whedon does it).

[cincoflex.livejournal.com]

I really don't think we needed ANOTHER word in our cultural vernacular specifically to make women feel bad about themselves.

Huh, okay. Maybe I write too much erotica, but if given a choice of terminology, I'd take 'quim' over 'cunt' anyday. I thought it was on par with 'pussy' which can be used derisively or affectionately depending on circumstance.

I could tell Whedon WANTED to use 'cunt' and knew he couldn't; I wish he'd dropped the whole idea myself. Black Widow wasn't in the least affected by anything said to her, and it made Loki cheap.

Just my opinion, of course.

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

*snickers at this post*

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

My brain, I tell you.