Sanctuary: The Depths

[grav_ity]

SERIOUSLY? WE ARE CHANGING GREGORY'S TIMELINE AGAIN? I have SERIOUS PROBLEMS believing he was around during the whole Worth thing (or that he even KNEW Worth, because, WHY would he have been okay with the dude being in Hollow Earth?), and...ARGH, we've now moved from 1892 to 1898 to 1909 and IT BOTHERS ME (and that's leaving aside the part where he'd be about 80 in 1909...).

Moving on!



Was this episode out of order? The end of last week just seemed so...epic. And Henry's "letters to Alistair and/or Alice" thing was cute but, you know, THE STAKES. You can't just UNRAISE them. This has certainly been the season of making everything meaningful in the last five minutes, and while that works on occasion, it loses some potency when it's done every time. Was this season written under weird restrictions? It feels very hasty and 2-dimensional. I do like the idea that Helen's keeping secrets, obviously, I just...WISH THERE HAD BEEN SOME INDICATION PRIOR TO THIS (see also: that time on Dollhouse when we learned that Adele had been Planning It All Along. There's a difference between A Clever Plan and a Cheap Trick With The Writing).

Since when does a lifetime of study in cryptozoology preclude a BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF GRAVITY?

I wish they'd start giving Will argumentative scenes that actually involved an argument. You know, when there are two choices, neither of which can be easily made and both of which have downsides. But Abby was a Hail Mary, and crawling through the cave had no real alternatives either and...it's just annoying. I want him to be the voice of reason sometimes, but it never seems to work out, and it's no one's fault but the people in charge of the dialogue and it would be SO EASY TO FIX.

So...Will is thinking about quitting? Or scaling back from begin the 2IC? Because it's not like he didn't know what he was signing up for, and it's not like he hasn't seen many, many living examples (Declan being the best one, obviously) since season one started.

Admittedly, the most Magnus-y thing Will has ever done is drink all the water (which, good for him, btw, except he'll find a way to blame her for it, which is just weird and WHY MUST THIS SHOW DO THIS TO ME), and I loved that he got to do something "reckless" and save the day (ish). And I do like the idea of Will "graduating", I just wish his characterization was more consistent. Because it's been FOUR YEARS and he's a smart guy, but he keeps acting like ALL OF THIS IS A SURPRISE TO HIM. Declan has made it clear that it's possible to live in the shadow of one of The Five and emerge as being competent in your own right. I think he and Will need to drink more or something.

I do, however, ADORE the idea that Second Round Helen paid for Harvard. SECOND ROUND HELEN, EVEN SCARIER THAN THE FIRST ONE!

(Side note: Did Will imply that Druitt is dead? Because that would...really suck. For a multitude of reasons. I mean, I wouldn't mind John dying (I'd mind it a lot), but it would have to be ON SCREEN and WELL WRITTEN (like his non-death in Haunted) and...yeah. Weirdness.)

I'm blaming it all on the drugs and going back to bed.

Please don't spoil me for the finales, including cast members and things in the Sneak Peaks, which we don't get up here anyway. I've managed to make it this far, and I'd love to make it two more weeks!

Comments

[shadadukal]

I knew you'd react this way to Gregory's yet again altered timeline.

There's a difference between A Clever Plan and a Cheap Trick With The Writing

Yes, this.

Declan has made it clear that it's possible to live in the shadow of one of The Five and emerge as being competent in your own right. I think he and Will need to drink more or something.

They probably do.

I do, however, ADORE the idea that Second Round Helen paid for Harvard. SECOND ROUND HELEN, EVEN SCARIER THAN THE FIRST ONE!

I think the first one. After all, she's been watching since she was a kid.

Did Will imply that Druitt is dead? Because that would...really suck. For a multitude of reasons. I mean, I wouldn't mind John dying (I'd mind it a lot), but it would have to be ON SCREEN and WELL WRITTEN (like his non-death in Haunted)

I think he did imply it. And yeah, totally what you said. :(

[nandamai]

Heyerdahl gave an interview last week that answers your question about Druitt. The article has spoilers in, but I don't think the answer itself is spoilery. Do you want to know?

[shadadukal]

I think the answer is spoilery personally.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...no, thanks. Interviews generally make me more angry. ;)

[nandamai]

Yeah, I get that. I usually don't read them myself.

[fellowshipper.livejournal.com]

Could you give me a link to that interview please?

[nandamai]

Sure. PMing you now. :)

Love that icon! The look on John's face is fabulous.

[technosage.livejournal.com]

I'll never be sure why you think any of this is a surprise to Will. His characterization's had a few fluctuations between writers, but it's pretty clear to me that Will's been following the same track every unwitting apprentice follows of being skeptical, getting drawn in, having hero worship, learning what can be learned, and then feeling strong enough to question the master. It's nearly identical to the arc Dick Grayson had with Bruce Wayne for umpteen years.

It takes knowing the rules to be able to break them, for one thing, and for another, Will's a profiler and a shrink. It's his training to try to dig deeper and understand rather than to constantly challenge. It's a mark of how deep he feels he's gotten with Magnus and how much he thinks she does trust him that he's challenging her now.

Beyond that, I'm also unclear why you keep comparing Will to Declan. They're apples and oranges. Declan's a soldier. Living for Queen and Country is part of his mindset from day 1. And he's also British, where accepting your place in life is steeped in with mother's milk. I read him as a forty-something from a solid home who never wanted to be in charge but wanted to do something meaningful and make a difference.

Will is a totally different beast. He's a middle American kid from a shattered home, who wanted to be better than his dad and make his dead mother proud. He needed to be more and to get out and more than that, he needed to understand the world that he found himself in. He's not a soldier. He didn't join the FBI to make the world a better place, really. He joined the FBI to try to get access to things he believed he saw. And he spent the best part of his childhood medicated and in therapy because everyone thought he was crazy. Will's biggest fear is being insane.

Put more plainly: trying to make sense of the world is what Will does. He's a detective.

IOW, he's the classic example of a character who is so busy looking outside himself that he rarely looks inward until he has no choice. So while it might annoy you that he's late to the party on trying to live his own life "in the shadow of the Five," it's not surprising to me in the least. It's really very sad, actually, that Will's still trying so hard to reunite with and save the Maternal Feminine. And whether you read Magnus, as I do, as the possibility of uniting his needs for a mother and a lover in one person or just as a mentor, it's a shallow reading of Will not to see how hard it is for him to alienate the person whose love means most to him in the world and how far he's had to come to be willing to risk it.

[querulouspeg.livejournal.com]

I really like your analysis of Will here. Kudosio.

[technosage.livejournal.com]

It's possible I've spent some serious time in the boy's head. ;) Thanks.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

When I talk about Will and Declan at the same time, I simply mean that James and Declan run different Sanctuaries, just like Will and Helen have different styles of leadership. Sorry, that's an extension of a thought I had in someone else's lj (I think...it's starting to blur...), a couple weeks ago and I didn't really give all the backstory here. :)

As for the other, I do feel I have a much better understanding of Will since Fugue, but it still frustrates me that every time (well, "every time") he argues with Helen, he's not presenting alternatives.

[technosage.livejournal.com]

undoubtedly James and Helen did run different Sanctuaries. Theirs are two wholly different sort of manias. But Will being able to see how A Sanctuary may be different is not the same as knowing how or what direction to make changes in Helen's Sanctuary or even having the right. I don't doubt that had she Bren gone longer than an objective few hours things would've been very different when she returned.

This, though, regarding providing alternatives strike me either as straw man or just a failure to understand what they're arguing about, at least in The Depths. If I say to my BFF that she is too reckless and never listens to my advice, I don't need to present an alternative because the alternative, slow down and listen to me sometimes, is implicit. Will isn't, in that moment, arguing with the choice of going through the hole in the rocks, for example. He knows they have no choice, he's just afraid and lashing out at her continuously bossy behavior with the full knowledge that as much as it frustrates and annoys him, sometimes it saves his life.

in general, in The Depths, the arguments aren't about getting out of there, because that is clear: take stupid risks or die without trying. They're under extreme pressure, with no one to count on but each other, Will's angry about Abby and scared he's going to die (telling, isn't it, that Helen uses Abby to rouse him, but HE is still thinking all about Magnus and how him dying will affect her?), Helen is afraid of losing like she's lost so many others and being to blame for it, and the emotion becomes a tinderbox for an "argument" that has nothing to do with logcand everything to do with emotion.

There are a lot of ways to look at what Will is saying to Helen, but one of the simplest and neatest in my opinion is that Helen treats him like a child when she's afraid of losing him or of him getting hurt, but treats him like a lover or a partner when he's not in danger but she needs something done she can't do herself. She's at once overprotective and distrustful. He Rightly doesn't know whether he is heir or partner, and he needs her to decide. If he is always the child, he needs to break away from her and find his own path. If he is partner then she needs to open up and trust him. Being a junior partner is only different from being a protege if it comes with more trust along with more responsibility. But this isn't a logical argument with alternatives; it's an emotional one about the course of their relationship. It's the kind of fight spouses, lovers, parents and children have all the time.

As a side note, if we get another season and Will remains in/returns to her Sanctuary, I expect to hear him calling her Helen more often.

[sheikah]

I have a lot of problems with the comment "living in the shadow of the Five." While we never got to see Watson come out of that, I think Magnus has come a long way from being one of the Five and has done things in her own right that make her a different creature entirely. I think working for Magnus =/= living in the shadow of the Five at all.

I think it's also problematic to try and compare Will to Magnus or insinuate he's becoming Magnus. There are different leadership styles - Magnus likes going rogue and answering only to herself whereas Will's more likely to try and work with another agency (ala in Uprising when he calls on Abby for help) than Magnus ever is or ever will be. I think it's telling that at the end of this episode he wants to be her partner, not her protege. That tells me he wants to be on equal footing - not to become her or live in her shadow.

Last, I agree with Allie in that comparing Will and Declan is like comparing apples and oranges. Will's probably closest to Kate if we're going for a straight analogy given we know (or at least Robert's heavily implied) Declan's from a military background where following orders is SOP. He thinks for himself, yes, but he's more comfortable letting someone else call the shots. Will's more likely to question because Will's a student of the mind. Will's always going to doubt himself in turns or not accept the status quo because of his background and education.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I explain the Will and Declan thing above.

[sheikah]

Still didn't really explain your point of view at all but I will chalk it up to being early.

[eldanna.livejournal.com]

I highly doubt John is dead. Actually, he can't be dead, because it will be VERY MAD IF HE IS. I think he's probably just disappeared and hasn't called and Will has no idea what's happening. As per usual.

Will has bugged me this season as well. He really bugged me in this episode, but I agree that it was very Magnus to drink all the water. He needs to do things like that a lot more! He ran the Sanctuary for a while and yet...soon as Magnus returns: no backbone anymore. He needs Declan to slap some sense into him. And a lot of liquor.

I was wondering about the order thing. This seemed anti-climatic, somehow. Last week's was such a good cliffhanger. I'm a little worried for the end that's coming and how it's going to play out. At this point, I'm really hoping Helen's secret is MASSIVE and everything will make sense.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I agree with all your comments about Will and Helen. THIS is what I was looking for towards the end of the musical episode, and I'm glad that it wasn't a dropped ball completely, but still... Will wants to be a partner? It's all very confuzzling.

I missed the comment about Druitt being dead and the Daddy Magnus stuff. Although, I kinda thought Helen/Adam's battle had done something to Druitt? Am I misremembering? I thought he was dead (although, being scifi, and particularly Druitt, I figure even if it was, it didn't stick).

Oh, and I'm a bit confused about something. I was during the episode but maybe you can clear it up. I couldn't tell if it was first round Magnus or second round Magnus who paid for Harvard. How did you figure out it was Helen II?

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I just always assume it's second round Helen, because it is SO MUCH MORE FUN to imagine her ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING on the second pass instead of just...sitting in a cave in Scotland, or something.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Or being a fortune teller and the secret recruiter of abnormals? Just as an example, of course.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I very much wrote that fic. ;)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

That would be exactly the kind of spoiler I requested to not have.