A Public Service Announcement

[grav_ity]

Maybe it's because Americans take Spanish in place of French, so the rules of French grammar aren't as "common" as they are in Canada? I have no idea.

But there's a mistake I've seen a lot lately, and it's making me crazy.

In French, there are male words and there are female words. Sometimes, as with a word like rouge, there is no difference if you are describing a male red thing or a female red thing (um...I think? I am rusty). Sometimes there is. A Canadian female, for example, is a Canadienne. A male is Canadien. The female forms often have extra letter, and are pronounced differently, but again, that is not always the case.

One such French word that is used in English almost exclusively is fiancé. As far as I know, we have no direct translation at all, because we say "I am engaged to" not "so and so is my 'engaged'", though I guess "betrothed" or "promised" would come the closest. However, and this is the mistake I have been seeing, fiancé is ONLY THE MALE FORM. If you are writing about a woman, it's fiancée.

(Having read that back to myself out loud, I guess there is a slight variation in pronunciation, but it's not as remarkable as Canadien/Canadienne.)

For the love of little green apples, do not have John Druitt talking about his fiancé. Unless he's marrying James, of course. ;)

This has been a public service announcement.

Comments

[angelqueen04.livejournal.com]

However, and this is the mistake I have been seeing, fiancé is ONLY THE MALE FORM. If you are writing about a woman, it's fiancée.

I totally did not know this (which says just how much I pay attention to grammar). Thanks so much for the tip! Hopefully I'll remember it in future stories. :)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I've seriously seen eight fics this week where John talks about Helen as being his fiancé, and it is MAKING ME CRAZY. ;)

Posting makes me feel better.

[shadadukal]

It's kinda ironic that I made the mistake myself. But I was in English thinking mode where his and her depends on who possesses rather than the noun they work with and it transferred to the noun instead.

Pronunciation between fiancé and fiancée is the same in French, but you may not pronounce those words the same in English. *shrugs*

I'm kinda curious how much French you have retained from your schooling.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

In the English pronunciation, it's "fee-AHN-say" for male and "fee-ahn-SAY" for female.

The French I have left is very, very basic, and my accent is probably distressingly Canuckois, so if you ever come and visit, we can practice. ;)

[lone-pyramid.livejournal.com]

In the English pronunciation, it's "fee-AHN-say" for male and "fee-ahn-SAY" for female.

...It is? I've never heard that distinction. If anything, I just figured it was English accent (first one) vs French accent (second one). Some people anglicize other languages and some people keep the native pronunciation.

(For the record: masculine and feminine. /mini French lesson)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just like calling them male/female. ;)

The pronunciation thing is probably regional. I have a bizarre accent.

[shadadukal]

There is a British and American difference. According to my dictionary, the first one you listed is British and the second one American. That said, it of course doesn't exclude variations in regional accents.

And that's a very basic and crappy explanation, but I can't use the IPA in an LJ comment.

The only common sounds between the French and any English pronunciation are F & S though. All the vowels are different.

[shadadukal]

Hahaha, I can never read explanations of pronunciation such as this, so I went and opened my pronunciation dictionary (totally one of the best things I own). I can't pronounce it the English way BTW, either one. I can do the beginning more or less right, but the end is French. :P

I'd want to speak English ALL THE TIME though, but could help you out with your German, mine being better than yours at this point.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

What ever works.

[shadadukal]

I think I can't understand those explanations because I've never actually learn to read English, just learned everything by heart.

[nandamai]

I pronounce them that way, too. I'm not going to explain that to my Haitian students, though. "Same word as in French!" always makes them so happy.

I actually see it more often in fic the other way around: fiancée for a man.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think it's just because I'm on a run of Sanctuary fic.

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I encounter the reverse more often as well. I think "fee-ahn-SAY" for a woman might be a regional pronunciation because they seem to sound the same for both men/women out West.

I do see "affianced" in writing periodically for "engaged" but I've never heard it said out loud.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

affianced = af-fee-ANHST

And it's probably regional. :)

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean that you needed to tell me *how* to say it, as I have technically heard it before, I just mean I never hear anyone use that word in spoken English. :)

Basically, English-speakers as a group do everything in our power to move the stress to the beginning of the word, or close to it. I guess some regions are farther along with that than others. :)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I did think it was weird...

SPARKTOBER!

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD I KNOW RIGHT????

I need to finish this fic! Gah! I struggle with the fifth thing of Five Things fics, almost always (I can think of one exception, but that's only because I thought of the fifth thing first). I need to start a trend of Four Things fics.

[lone-pyramid.livejournal.com]

Also: that mis-spelling always drives me nuts too.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

JUST. BONKERS. :)

[laura-josephsen.livejournal.com]

I think I learned this when I was engaged? It's been a long time, anyway. ;)

[threerings.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I notice that too (as someone who has taken lots of French), but I think that using the masculine as universal is really wide-spread in English, to the point that it may not even be a real "rule" anymore. It seems like one of those distinctions that American English tends to forget about over time.

And, yes, there is a pronunciation difference, but I don't think most Americans ever use the correct pronunciation for fiancee. At least, I always hear the masculine pronunciation.

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

And while we're at it, a "blonde" is ALWAYS female. If it's a man with golden or brown hair, you call him blond instead.

The same goes for brunet / brunette, but the male form sounds old-fashioned so most people just say "brown-haired man" instead.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Agreed, but I haven't seen enough of those lately for it to bug me. :)

[laura-josephsen.livejournal.com]

I knew the blonde/blond distinction, but I'd never seen brunet/brunette. Probably because I've never written, nor do I recall ever reading, a male brunet.

[samjohnsson.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you god that I'm not the only one still with those binaries!

[mad_maudlin]

I definitely think this rule is phasing out for modern US English (along with "blond/blonde," etc.) but the Five are neither modern nor USian; I'm willing to bet they were all familiar with French (and Latin and Greek) and thus would always maintain the distinction.

[querulouspeg.livejournal.com]

I have John Druitt say 'I am your fiance' (sorry no accents on this keyboard!) and Helen replies 'As my fiance perhaps you....' so I think I'm in the clear.

Yup, even in English the female form of this word has the extra E.

[meresy.livejournal.com]

I see masculin/féminin mistakes aaaaall the tiiiiiiiiime. Mostly I have to git my teeth and bear it. It's so easy to do. (See also: né and née, mon ami(e), and the tragic lack of diacritics everywhere.)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

NOT THE DIACRITICS!

(Oh, grammar! How I adore thee!)

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

What situation would call for "né" for a man in English? I've only ever seen that used in English in the context of a woman's maiden name.

[meresy.livejournal.com]

Guys can change their names, and do. *g*

But I've seen né for a woman's name, occasionally, which is the more usual error.

[mylittleredgirl.livejournal.com]

OK! :) And yes, I know that guys change their first and last names for various reasons, but I've never seen it written "né X," always "formerly X," so I thought that "née" was specifically "a woman who changed her last name because of marriage." :) Like, I changed my first name, and wouldn't think to use "née Elena" to refer to myself.

So basically your point is completely correct and I feel like a real dork for not considering it, haha.

[samjohnsson.livejournal.com]

All that difference being said, English has been experiencing for the last five hundred years or so a distinct leveling and eliding of gender markers. We've lost grammatical gender pretty much entirely. Even in the proforms, there is a strong leveling toward the singular neuter 'they' instead of the last-gender-holdouts of denotative 'he' or 'she'. (Singular 'they', also, can be traced back to contemporary with Shakespeare and his ilk.)

On the other hand. As much as it drives me bonkers to see 'fiance' (no accents, cause I'm lazy) for Helen, it whips my gender-studies-trained soul into an absolute meringue (it's spiky!) that we need a word for 'a guy or unknown' and a word for 'thuh wimmins' (fiancee, actress, the list goes on for a while).

And yes, I contradict myself.

[bookwormprinces.livejournal.com]

I actually knew this one! *pats self* :)

[colej55.livejournal.com]

Knew that, but when we write under a time crunch, rules fly out the window. It's always great to be reminded of these sorts of things, so thanks!

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Hee! This one doesn't drive me crazy, but I do notice it.

On the other hand, I'm guilty of other grammar missteps. :-)

[holdouttrout.livejournal.com]

Oh, and AO3 won't let me give you kudos or a comment. Know that I want to give you both! <3

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they're doing a code push or something.

[miana-dude.livejournal.com]

I never knew this. Thanks!

[garinarayne.livejournal.com]

I flinched just looking at the example sentence. I agree with you about the pronunciation, too (I'm English, so that may or may not explain that), but a lot of people do seem to pronounce them identically. I'm currently studying Latin, so I'm hyper alert for word endings at the moment (or else you can completely change the meaning of the sentence.)

My current pet peeve, however, is occurring now that Strictly Come Dancing is back on. One of the judges consistently says "You was" which makes me want to throw things at her and scream things at the TV.