More Thoughts About "Into The Black"

[grav_ity]

I don't know why I can't find my own words about this, beyond saying that I am totally on Helen's side and vaguely disappointed with the writers. I blame stress and moving and all that real life stuff that gets in the way of me analyzing TV.

But artaxastra wrote Seasons, and that made me feel better about how I feel about what happened.

Now, gabolange has written meta that explains why I wish it hadn't happened. Because, yes, John does not get to erase Helen Magnus, but NEITHER DO THE FREAKING WRITERS, and taking into account "I married a man I hate" and the whole "I never want to see you again" before she found out about John's Brilliant Plan, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.

You can't all read the meta because it's locked, but the pertinent points are these:

Except then I started thinking about it and I had to change my mind. Because, well. Those are not the characters I've been watching for the last three years. To distill John and Helen's relationship--even from John's perspective--down to "It would be so much better if we could go back in time and have babies!" does a massive disservice to both Helen and John. And while I appreciated that Helen called John on this magnificent piece of bullshit, it just felt so . . . completely weird. We've always enjoyed the complexity of this relationship, these characters, the sense that the past informs the future and that, as such, Helen and John are careful allies, sometimes friends, always a little bit too attached to each other, and that they understand the consequences of their actions. John's apparent willingness to give up on this version of Helen Magnus was as baffling to me as it was to Helen.

So, this magnficent piece of bullshit led to another one (that had been previewed a little in "Out of the Blue," I guess): Helen telling John that she never wants to see him again. Again, what? I mean, granting that John had been even weirder than usual (in a completely out-of-character sort of way), maybe . . . but . . . no. Is this the same Helen Magnus who curled up with John in "Of King and Country"? The same one who has expressed her willingness to use John's violence for her own purposes? The same one who shines so much when she's with John and Nikola? I found that baffling.

Except, of course, that Amanda Tapping has said that she really wants Helen to have a love interest next season. So, what? To give our main female character a love interest, we have to excise her complex and interesting past and ensure that she has no remaining attachment to anyone? Oh, no. Anyone who might love Helen Magnus has to appreciate that she's been around for 160 years; that she's had other lovers or other experiences and a child with Jack the Ripper. Is that a tall order? Of course. But I hate, hate, hate that to give a woman a romantic interest, we have to deprive her of one of the most complex, interesting, and--yes--platonic relationships she has.

I'd be more angry, but I'm already firmly in denial and I have to move tomorrow and then spend a month in the desert. Maybe when I get home it will have magically solved itself.

Comments

[jerusha]

Oh, thank you. I have not been happy with the back half of season 3, including "Into the Black," and yet I couldn't put my finger on why. It's like they're trying to oversimplify the relationships, and to go that route--particularly after an episode like Normandy--is just mind boggling.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

The thing I couldn't put my finger on, because I was so busy yelling "NO ONE ERASES HELEN MAGNUS!" was that I was actually yelling it at the wrong people. It's not JOHN. It's the WRITERS.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

It baffles me. These relationships are what make this show so good (when it's good), and what make the characters so interesting. I have no idea why they'd go this route. Hmph.

[jemster.livejournal.com]

Is this the same Helen Magnus who curled up with John in "Of King and Country"? The same one who has expressed her willingness to use John's violence for her own purposes? The same one who shines so much when she's with John and Nikola? I found that baffling.

That scene in "Of King and Country" nearly did me in. I had to watch it literally fifteen times in a row. The thing is John is more than willing to use violence at Helen's bidding. Helen for me is the type of person that can be polyamorous and not diminish who she is and what she wants out of life.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Not gonna lie, I freaked the CRAP OUT when that happened. I was totally unspoiled, hadn't even seen a PICTURE of it, and when it happened I nearly died. Because they NEVER TOUCH (except when Helen is hallucinating), and GOD! There hasn't been enough between FK&C and ItB to justify this. There just hasn't. And I'm so glad i have the words now.

[jemster.livejournal.com]

Neither had I and it was so tender that it just sqeezed my heart and wouldn't let go those little bastards.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

And it's not even just John! Helen's whole "no one ever liked you" speech in "The Five" is in direct contradiction with pretty much EVERYTHING ELSE she's ever said to Nikola (leaving aside revamping him in Awakenings, she spent six hours straight without leaving the lab after Sleepers trying to fix him!). And she must have had EPIC rows with James. I just...feel so much better now that I have somewhere to direct my flailing! :)

[jemster.livejournal.com]

And what's concerning about that is Tesla never wanted to be fixed.

I've only seen all the episodes once. It might be time for a Sanctuary re-watch before season 4 starts!

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Um, by "fixed" I meant "turned back into a vampire" and he seemed okay with that in Awakenings and tried it himself in "Trail of Blood" so...yeah

REWATCH!

It makes the fic better. :)

[jemster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, THAT makes much more sense.

It makes the fic better. :)

And to understand character analysis by other people and to hold your own in the conversation. ;-)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Well I do love explaining things...;)

[oparu.livejournal.com]

It is a bit of that fandom convention where you erase what has been in order to have the road clear for your pairing of choice, though, it's a bit annoying when paid writers do it, not silly fans and their OTPs.

Based on what John says, Helen is right, but John doesn't seem to be John. I say this as a person who is a bit terrified of John. John's going crazy? Maybe a bit senile? Something seems wrong.

(also, I liked Adam dead. I liked knowing John had killed Adam for Helen. I am a bad person)

Having John still haunt her is a more interesting place to start a new relationship. Helen/Nikola/love interest should be hilarious and fun too.

come on....female love interest.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

It is a bit of that fandom convention where you erase what has been in order to have the road clear for your pairing of choice, though, it's a bit annoying when paid writers do it, not silly fans and their OTPs.

*snerk*, yes!

Helen/Everyone FOREVER!

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

John really, really didn't seem like John. I hope there's a reason for it other than to Make A Change or something like that. Otherwise it's just silly.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

There's also the part where they changed what it is electricity actually does to him. THAT WAS VERY ANNOYING.

[oparu.livejournal.com]

He doesn't! I think, if anything, he likes modern!Helen even more than past!Helen. (at least, I think he does).

I am making my personal canon that he's suffering some kind of dementia or something else is wrong.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

I am making my personal canon that he's suffering some kind of dementia or something else is wrong.

I hope so!! Perhaps that's a weird thing to hope, but otherwise, the character assassination is just too much. Bah.

[oparu.livejournal.com]

It is a weird thing to root for, but it's better than the alternative and...actually would be an interesting arc. Helen's body doesn't change, but his does, and living on her blood, doesn't quite work as well, something like that would be cool.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

The other thing that bugs me is that the non-Helen/John people having been jumping all over this as "Finally getting rid of that pesky serial killer, and how dare you defend him because he is JACK THE RIPPER", which is only half-true, and the Helen/John people are all "MOST ROMANTIC THING, EVER!" and that just makes me want to VOMIT, so I've been feeling very islanded in fandom since the episode aired, and scared to say anything lest someone jump down my throat.

So...I'm glad you're here. ;)!

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

Happy to help out!

the Helen/John people are all "MOST ROMANTIC THING, EVER!"

Oh, ew.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Just...stay away from tumblr.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

Duly noted.

[palmaceae.livejournal.com]

shucks, i would really like to read that meta but it's friends only. but yes. SO TRUE. I LOVE EVERY WORD OF THIS. well, except for platonic. i'd like an elaboration on the usage of that word.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

It is flocked, but grav_ity reposted 100% of the relevant parts. And I'm glad you like it!

As for "platonic," I'd say that I used it because while John and Helen have a romantic past, their relationship at this point in the series is built much more on shared history, mutual goals (sometimes), genuine respect, and so much more than any sexual relationship they had/have/might have. And I also genuinely don't think they're sleeping together. :)

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Er, yes. Sorry. I did manage to copy all the good parts, though!

[shadadukal]

The meta is flocked unfortunately. I'd like to read it all though.

I'm fairly neutral about it. I mean, I'm glad Helen called John on his bullshit, but if all this was done just so Helen could get a love interest next season, just no. OTOH, I'm not entirely sure this is so out of character for John, who has extremely crazy moments. And Helen has tried to kill or at the very least seriously harm John before. Telling him to stay away is a minor expression of her not wanting to deal with him right this very minute.

The problem I have with John characterization in this ep is that he has just been double-crossed by Adam, and he starts making deals with him again. He is smarter than that, even if he sucks at making plans. And that they changed the effect electricity has on the elemental. I'm sure they could have found a way to work Nikola in in the ep instead, such as "Shit is happening, I should go see if Helen needs help" + "you are not leaving me behind this time" + "oh siphoning energy, I can do that now that I'm an electromagnetic vampire".

I'm praying for a female love interest so Helen can be canonically bisexual, and not just coz Amanda said so.

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

The only additions to the meta that are behind the flock are the fact that I think the "abnormals invading the planet" plot is almost as dumb as the time machine plot. Don't worry, grav_ity included all the relevant thoughtful parts. :)

OTOH, I'm not entirely sure this is so out of character for John, who has extremely crazy moments. And Helen has tried to kill or at the very least seriously harm John before. Telling him to stay away is a minor expression of her not wanting to deal with him right this very minute.

I agree that John has many, many crazy moments. But I've never gotten the sense before that he doesn't value the person that Helen is now, or that he doesn't respect the fact that choices have consequences. I mean, I guess the introduction of a way to change the past could have a way of making even the most sane among us reevaluate our choices, but I always got the sense that John was more complex than, "I want to go back in time and have babies!" (There are in-character ways that I could buy the John-wants-to-change-the-past plot. This was not one of them.)

As for Helen's response, she's tried to kill him before. But she's also saved his life--even after trying to kill him. Asking him to go away for a while, I could believe, but telling him she never wants to see him again? Helen is particular about the words she uses, and it's much too third grade a phrase for her not to mean it. And I don't believe that the Helen Magnus I know would truly want never to see John again. She finds him far too useful.

I'm praying for a female love interest so Helen can be canonically bisexual, and not just coz Amanda said so.

That'd be cool!

[shadadukal]

I'm not fond of the abnormals coming up to invade the surface either.

I don't believe that the Helen Magnus I know would truly want never to see John again.

I can believe that. She finds him useful sure, but she's spent more than a century without a handy teleporter at her disposal, so she can do without him. And as Helen herself said, she can do her own killings.

[m-nivalis.livejournal.com]

(of all the days not to have an "I fully agree with this post"-icon...)

But yes, exactly! Now, from a Doylist perspective I can see that the writers thought Adam Worth was an excellent villain and that they wanted to keep him in the picture (see also: Heroes, end of season 1). But it doesn't make sense to make John so stupid that he takes up Adam's offer at that time, even if he'd want with all his heart to be rid of the elemental and have a "proper" chance at Helen again.

And as for potential new love interest, it's not as if she's having a relationship right now (that we know of). Helen/John status: complicated =/= none them can have any other person in their lives ever again.

[shadadukal]

it doesn't make sense to make John so stupid that he takes up Adam's offer at that time, even if he'd want with all his heart to be rid of the elemental and have a "proper" chance at Helen again.

Especially at that time. I'm fond of villains remaining dead. If you include 1908, that's now twice that Adam should have died/been killed. The problem with bringing back villains is that if they do end up being killed for real, no one believes it anymore. Or they have their doubts, which is a problem I think.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure this is so out of character for John, who has extremely crazy moments. And Helen has tried to kill or at the very least seriously harm John before. Telling him to stay away is a minor expression of her not wanting to deal with him right this very minute.

I working on a meta now that I have more direction to my thoughts, but yes: John does crazy things. John does dumb things. And yes, Helen has actually killed him. But still: sloppy writing (I'm typing it as soon as my cousin leaves!).

[shadadukal]

I'll read it after I'm done reading comments to this post.

[po-thang.livejournal.com]

You know, I thought the same thing when John made yet another deal with Adam. He betrayed John once...John wouldn't have turned around and made another deal with him without having some sort of fail-safe in place to protect himself. He's smarter than that.

And I know I'm in the minority in this, but Helen being done with John felt like the right thing. No matter how much one loves another (even if it is as a dysfunctional love as John and Helen's) there comes a straw that broke the camel's back. John lying about killing Adam and then trying to go back in time and erase all events with the Source blood would be that straw (and I don't find it nearly as hard to believe that John would want to do that as others do).

As for Helen being willing to use John's blood lust for her purposes? Well, Helen has always been able, and willing, to skirt the edge of darkness if it got her agenda furthered. Now, don't get me wrong, I actually respect that about her. Helen doesn't live in a world of roses and rainbows. She knows that, sometimes, deals with the devil are the only way to get things accomplished. She has her own code of honor that she lives by...and few, if any, completely understand it. I'm not even sure she understands it completely.

And whether or not Helen gets a love interest next season? I, for one, hope that she *is* done with John. (please don't hurt me). I mean, how many times does he have to lie and betray her before she admits that the love she held for him over a 100 years ago isn't enough to keep forgiving him? *She* is smarter than that. (once again...please don't hurt me. :-))

[shadadukal]

Helen being done with John felt like the right thing.

As you said, even when you love someone, it may not be enough. It's quite possible Helen still loves John somewhere deep down. But we know there are things which provoke violent reactions towards him in her. To protect and save Ashley, she gave him poison which she expected to kill or at least cripple him. I for one think that if it weren't for Nikola, John indeed would have died. In "Haunted", she kills him and revives him, but she thinks she can help him somehow. And then she can't.

I don't find it nearly as hard to believe that John would want to do that as others do

Yes, because John lost everything with the Source Blood/the elemental. His fiancé, his friends, and the possibility of a normal life (wanting to kill people all the time is hardly so). Whereas the others gained cool powers and/or extended life spans. Of course, he'd want it changed. I think for him as well there is a last straw of what he can take in his life. I think John has all of these motivations for wanting to change the past, but tells Helen the one that has to do with her. I think he would have been better served to say he want to never have killed. Helen would still be appalled that he thought changing the past is a good idea, but her rejection of him personally less strong.

I, for one, hope that she *is* done with John. (please don't hurt me). I mean, how many times does he have to lie and betray her before she admits that the love she held for him over a 100 years ago isn't enough to keep forgiving him? *She* is smarter than that. (once again...please don't hurt me. :-))

I agree with you. She can keep on loving him deep down, but there comes a point when dealing with him is going to be something that hurts her too much, etc... and she knows to put a stop to it, and I think that takes a very strong person, like Helen, to recognize this.

[po-thang.livejournal.com]

I agree that if John had stated more reasons other than "we could have a life together" that Helen might not have rejected him quite as thoroughly as she did. She would still, as you say, have been appalled that he wanted to erase everything but she wouldn't have decided that it was just so they could play house.

One other thing I forgot to mention. Everyone is saying that this is a way to write John out of the show. I actually don't think so. If I remember correctly, when he was going to try and overload the device by feeding the creature inside him the electricity, Helen said that giving the creature that much power would enable it to consume John.

I'm thinking that we might be hearkening back to the John of the webisodes. Which, if I do say so myself, might not be a bad thing. John was, in my opinion, a much more interesting character before he became Helen's neutered killer.

I look forward to next season to see what they do with John. I mean, if they really wanted him gone, they would have killed him after he electrocuted himself.

Christopher Heyerdahl is an amazing actor whether he's playing John or Bigfoot, but I'd like to see what he could do with an unrepentant John.

[shadadukal]

One other thing I forgot to mention. Everyone is saying that this is a way to write John out of the show. I actually don't think so. If I remember correctly, when he was going to try and overload the device by feeding the creature inside him the electricity, Helen said that giving the creature that much power would enable it to consume John.

I don't see John being written out of the show either. I think John will return to who he was in the first ep, i.e. a more unhinged John. Or maybe something in between the John from the pilot and the John from the webisodes.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Welcome! I'm working on a longer meta of my own thoughts, but yes: wackiness has ensued and I've finally figured out who I am really annoyed with. ;)

[gabolange.livejournal.com]

As for the 'this is all to allow for a new love interest for Helen in Season 4' thing- I'm not so sure that's the case. The initial feeling I got from the interviews where I've seen this mentioned, is that this idea came up after season 3 was done and dusted. That it came up when they heard they had been picked up for another season and the dev on season 4 started

You know, if that's the case, I'm not sure that makes it better or worse. Because, on one hand, the whole idea that they have to write the characters OOC just so the lead woman can have a love interest is monumentally problematic. But on the other hand, if everybody's OOC to advance the plot point of Helen running around in Victorian England without a way to return while abnormals take over the future or whatever . . . that's just really, really bad writing. Neither speaks particularly well for the show as a whole, though I suppose they say differently poor things!

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

You know, if that's the case, I'm not sure that makes it better or worse.

I am writing my own thoughts, and that's something I'm going to address as well. ;)