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Okay, so

speedy_leen and I just had this conversation about Brandon Sanderson and how you can like a person's writing without liking the person, and I think I compromised with her on Sanderson (who at least seems open to discussion?), but with God as my witness, I am never telling another person to read Orson Scott Card.

I really like "Ender's Game". I like the possibility, the battle strategies, the future politics. I really liked the Bean sequels. I love the twisted version of "Children are our Future". When I worked at Chapters, and someone asked me for a book, I sent them to either "Ender's Game" or "The Power of One", because those are two books that I really love.

And now Card has rewritten Hamlet. Wherein Hamlet's father was evil. Because he was gay. And molested Horatio, Rozencrantz and Guildenstern, and made them gay too. Because that's how it works.

I had a huge angry thing here that I've deleted and rewritten a couple of times. It involved something about money and charities I don't like, and a vague denunciation of Card's new teen books (which I haven't read, because I was already against him in general), but I think I'm just going to say: NO THANK YOU, MR. CARD, and never spend another dime on any of his books again. And possibly toss the ones I've already got.

And then curl up with "Stealing Fire" for a while.

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Bah. I really liked Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, and then I found out what a terrible, close-minded person Card was, and I stopped reading anything by him. It's such a shame.

I hadn't heard about his re-worked Hamlet, though. That's atrocious.

Yeah, I managed to read all the Ender books and buy all the Bean ones before I found out.

(I totally just looked up Bryce Courtney on wiki, and at least he seems safe for now...)

Yeah, I was just reading that Hamlet thing -- the review, I mean, not the travesty of a book -- this afternoon and going WHAAAAAT.

I can usually compartmentalize author and story -- I mean, when it comes right down to it, how many authors will I actually agree with 100% on everything? -- but the more outspoken they get on subjects that are near and dear to my heart, the harder it becomes to do that ... and when their writing becomes a thinly veiled (or in this case, not-at-all veiled) polemic for their vile views, forget it. I think at this point it's not so much a matter anymore of deciding not to read his books, so much as I don't think I could read (or re-read) his books without always having my awareness of his homophobic views in the back of my head, coloring how I read the story.

And to me, that's the difference between Sanderson and Card. Both are LDS, both are religious, both believe that being gay is wrong and a choice...but Sanderson has apparently written one of the best atheist characters in the history of books, and IN HIS OWN BLOG he is upfront about how there needs to be discussion about this sort of thing. So...I mean, I'm not going to throw him a parade, but I might consider buying one of his books if I like it.

Card, on the other hand, I won't. And I legitimately like his stuff. Or at least I did. I imagine it would be a bit poisoned now.

(Also, the English snob in me is saying things like "God, if you are going to rewrite Hamlet, at least MAKE IT A PRETTY BOOK (in terms of the FUCKING PROSE).")

... this is apropos of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but your tag for this post (not the rage one) makes me inappropriately cheerful. It's not as if I can't see why it's truncated like that, but now I would totally like to have a shakespea myself. *g*

I should say "I can't believe i don't have a shakespeare tag", but apparently that's over the limit.

Oh yeah, I could tell that's what it was supposed to be and why it was shorter, and I really hope my comment didn't come across as overly flippant (it's so hard to tell on the Internet). But it's such an awesome tag just the way it is!

I love it when people comment on my tags. I try to make them vaguely interesting. :)

Yeah I can't deal with Card anymore. And I only managed to read Ender's Game, which I enjoyed, but not as much as other people, apparently. I never felt like I wanted to read the sequels or anything.

As for Sanderson, I did pick up a couple of his books out of the library at one point, then came across some of his opinions with which I disagreed strongly and returned the books. I find it hard to separate author and story. I feel liked I can see their view in everything. Which is why I will probably not re-read Ender's Game much.

Though I had heard Sanderson had shifted his views recently, even though it's still something I disagree with strongly.

I've only started following Sanderson recently, after his reversal (or whatever...the whole thing started with Dumbledore, but at least he's not insane and he goes out of his way to write well balanced characters), and the Card thing has been boiling for years (it's been a very long time since I've bought one of his books, and the teen ones look right up my alley).

I still don't agree with Sanderson, but he's been open to discussion the whole time so...there's that?

I thought Ender's Game was brilliant, and also enjoyed Ender's Shadow, but apart from those everything else I've read by Orson Scott Card has made me feel not-so-faintly ill. There's something about his fiction that repulses me, regardless of the genre or subject matter -- it's one of the closest experiences I can claim to synesthesia.

But even if that weren't true, and I don't say this lightly because you know my philosophy on this subject, the whole concept of this book makes me want to smack Card around and yell, "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!" It's so totally offensive and wrong-headed, and basically validates every negative thing that's been said about him since he started posting his anti-gay essays to the Internet. Ugh.

I read the Ender Sequels before I was old enough to understand them (and accordingly found them boring where now I would probably find them at least patronizing, if not down right uncomfortable), and I haven't read anything else of his beyond the Bean Sequels, but I get what you mean. I read the bookjacket of his Fairy Book and felt a bit weird.

BAH! Blatant bigotry and lack of love never changed anyone's gender identification, sexual orientation, drug abuse, or any other important life decision. I sort of had this conversation with a Muslim couple in my doctor's office. They couldn't believe that a Christian could be so open to them and their suffering at losing their home in Jerusalem - knowing that they are Muslim. I expressed my sorrow over their plight and promised to pray for them. God is LOVE, people (Mr. Card)! We need to act like it as we emulate Him. Love the person as yourself and then all other aspects of life become open for discussion as we grow to understand one another. None of us is perfect, but all can offer love and try to understand where someone is coming from. Argh!!! Sorry, I think I just joined in your rage. I HATE pet "sins" that are exploited in terribly negative ways. *slinks away*

ALSO HE IS RUINING SHAKESPEARE!

Priorities! I have them! *head desk*

See this is why sometimes ignorance is bliss ;) The same way I don't really want to know what an actor thinks of politics or current events. Despite my best intentions I've never enjoyed GRRM's stuff as much since I made the mistake of reading his blog. And don't get me started on his abysmal taste in sports teams.

FWIW, love Sanderson's stuff, really enjoy the Ender books but less impressed with Card's other stuff.

See, and I've specifically avoided GRRM's blog because I know once I read his stuff on fanfiction it's just going to make me sad, and even though I might never actually sit down with ASoIAF, I want to have the option of doing so if he ever actually finishes it. ;)

So yes. But Card I couldn't avoid.

What's wrong with Sanderson? is it because he's a "dirty theist" or is it some other issue she has with him?

he's been an absolutely lovely person when I've met him *shrug*

I liked Ender's Game because it resonated with me, because of how I was treated by other kids as I grew up. I read one sequel and while I liked some of the worldbuilding, I was sort of bored. Ive read articles and interviews and I don't think I'd like him very much as a person. Don't think I'd read much more of his stuff either.

But wow. that's even worse than I'd heard before x_x yeah...no thanks, Mr. Card. No thanks :P

edit: note the quoties. I don't happen to personally thing theism or atheism are "dirty" or anything, I was trying to be humorous.

edit the second: GAH, seriously the more I read the angrier I get about this jackass.

Edited 2011-09-07 05:12 (UTC)

Brandon Sanderson is also a member of the LDS who went on record several times after JK Rowling released that Dumbledore was gay saying that while he realizes that good gay people exist and therefore should exists as good people in fiction, he supports his church leadership in believing that being gay is wrong, and someone should do something about it. What makes him different is that it's not in his fiction (so far as I know), that he's said he needs to talk about it and pray about it because he honestly doesn't know, and that he doesn't write stupid things on the internet.

I'm the one that has an issue with Sanderson, not

speedy_leen. She is able to separate a person from their work, and therefore will still read Card (but not Hamlet's Father). I can't.

ahhhh gotcha. Sanderson's one of the more openly theist fantasy writers I can recall. (that was a complaint my brother had, so Sis and I told him to read Way of Kings, and he was impressed by the care taken with the atheist character)

well that's sad for him that he feels his chruch is right (I feel they're wrong, fwiw. heck I feel that about my own church's "official" opinion the unofficial opinion is like half of us and unless those other guys change their minds I could see a split), but no, it's not in his fiction. He's one of those authors that, if he doesn't agree with a position, he actually goes and does research so that someone who does agree with the position will read his works and feel the character is legit. Mostly because personally he's always hated his ideas and beliefs trashed.

Maybe it is an issue he might choose to tackle in a future work and thus gain more understanding for. I dunno. I gotta give him props for "not saying stupid on the internet,". If only there was more of that.

*thinks about it for a bit* Him I feel pity for, rather than anger. He's managed to keep it out of his works, and he's got some credit with me for attempting to see the other side of issues important to him. (Maybe he needs a few awesome gay friends to show him that look, they're just people like everyone else, and doctrines can be flawed)

But ARGH CARD I can't even type properly! more about that was all over my google+ last night. ASKJGASDJHGDJHSGJHD!!!

I think there is a limit beyond which I am willing to tolerate. if it goes into, well, bashing and poor writing then no. If it gets too preachy then I eye roll, and sometimes drop them depending on the severity and how much they push my buttons, weighed against the story. I don't think there would be anything to like in the hamlet story :( that's just a mess of NO.

I liked Ender's Game okay, but not the way so many people did, so I never read more of Card. When I learned what a vile, vile person he was, I was very happy never to look at another of his books. I hadn't heard about Hamlet, though. What a hideous person he is. He must be suffering enormously somewhere to be so full of hate.

He must be suffering enormously somewhere to be so full of hate.

I haven't quite got to the part where I can feel bad about whatever suffering he's feeling...but yeah. Vile, vile vile.

I understand what you mean. It's difficult to separate an artist's work (be that book, music, film) from their views. I'd have them in the back of my head and it would colour my experience of the work.

speedy_leen can do it, and I just can't. Some things are worse than others (generally speaking I do better with movies, because movies tend to not own my soul the way a book does), but...yeah. I can't.

I can do it sometimes, and sometimes not. Depends what it's about.

...I was not aware you did not know of Card's rabidly anti-gay stances. These are unfortunately not new, as I've been aware of him, and leading people away from his works for at least a decade.

I knew. I just didn't know he was so...rabid and intentionally hurtful.

Believe me, he's just as bad in person. We've had mutual acquaintances since the late eighties, and yeah. I got rid of my books of his a long time ago.

I'm giving it some thought!

Yeah, Card... He's been like this for so long that I'm surprised I can still be taken aback by anything he does. (My watershed piece was a short story back in the '80s called "Eye For Eye" in which not only does our hero kill a man who propositions him, but the assassin who's been sent to kill him spares his life because, unlike the six female children she has happily murdered, Our Hero can handle his amazing powers.)

Also, it's not Claudius who's gay, it's King Hamlet, Hamlet's father. And that's significant because, in Card's universe, it makes his murder justifiable. Except that, whoops, it wasn't Claudius who killed him, it was - Horatio? The review quotes the back cover copy as saying that after you read this, you'll enjoy the play so much more for knowing what's really going on. Assuming you can ignore the text, maybe... *eyeroll*

Also, it's not Claudius who's gay, it's King Hamlet, Hamlet's father.

Er, yes. Sorry, I was so annoyed I can't even keep the characters straight.

ETA: and yes, this is pretty much bad fanfiction where you alter the canon to suit your own agenda. As I said above to

friendshipper, after all the anger, the English snob on me is thinking "if you're going to rewrite "Hamlet", at least come up with something as good as "The Lion King"!

Edited 2011-09-07 11:54 (UTC)

after all the anger, the English snob on me is thinking "if you're going to rewrite "Hamlet", at least come up with something as good as "The Lion King"

Hee! I'm totally with you on that one!

Yeah, Card's an ass. He's been this way for a long time, although deciding that the world needs "The Homophobe's Hamlet" is kind of special.

At least I learned the origin of the word "bowdlerized".

I occasionally wonder if I'd prefer to remain ignorant of the crappy beliefs that authors/actors/directors/writers/artists have (or the crappy things they DO do other people), because it DOES somewhat ruin their work for me, but I have a horror of being ignorant in general, and so I often end up (re)reading/watching things and having my impressions forever tainted. BAH.

(Also, I'm glad to know where bowdlerized comes from, too!)

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